390FE (406ci) for #50, built by Tom Lucas at FE Specialties.

[Alvin in AZ]

http://www.428cobrajet.org/images/TSB-oil-levels.jpg
Does that apply to all FE's?
Even a clunky ol' 360FE in a Dent?
Somehow I figure Ford used different pans for -every- application. LOL :D

Set me straight. :)

Alvin in AZ

[DuckRyder]

Somehow I figure Ford used different pans for -every- application. LOL

The do use several (many?) different pans. The Milodon pan is very similar to a CJ pan, so its reasonable to apply that bulletin to an FE with a CJ type or Milodon pan and a windage tray.

[Fordnatic]

Actually, a 428 crank in a 390 block (std bore) = a 410. Mercury made them in 66-67. Your overbore would add a few CI's. You have to have a different block with a big bore to get 428, very few 390 blocks will bore big enough to make a 428 without the cylinder walls getting too thin or actually breaching the water jacket. The pin height is closer to the top of the piston on 410 pistons because of the longer stroke, otherwise the piston would come up out of the deck. There are only pre-made pistons made in cast for a 410, you have to go to custom pistons to get forged ones. I had some forged 390 pistons cut down and new valve pockets cut when I built my 410. TRW makes a piston with a thick enough top to do this.

[DuckRyder]

Actually, a 428 crank in a 390 block (std bore) = a 410. Mercury made them in 66-67. Your overbore would add a few CI's. You have to have a different block with a big bore to get 428, very few 390 blocks will bore big enough to make a 428 without the cylinder walls getting too thin or actually breaching the water jacket. The pin height is closer to the top of the piston on 410 pistons because of the longer stroke, otherwise the piston would come up out of the deck. There are only pre-made pistons made in cast for a 410, you have to go to custom pistons to get forged ones. I had some forged 390 pistons cut down and new valve pockets cut when I built my 410. TRW makes a piston with a thick enough top to do this.

I'm not sure who you are responding to, but:

The engine being discussed here is a 390 crank in a standard bore 428 block so it is not a 410.

Ross catalogs a forged 410 piston, Summit used to keep them in stock...

[Skifu]

390 crank into a 428 block,std.bore,what does it come out to??,smaller,Id guess???

[Alvin in AZ]

390 crank into a 428 block,std.bore,what does it come out to??,smaller,Id guess???

pi/4 x bore x bore x stroke x 8

405.93 cubic inch displacement. :)

Alvin in AZ

[Fordnatic]

So Robroy, did you talk to Tom about the 428 crank? They generally run a few hundred more than a 390 crank, but I think it's a worthy investment for 22 more cubic inches. That will be one torque monster of an engine regardless, but to have a 428 would be really cool!

Oh, sorry Duckryder. I should have quoted this, I guess. I must have missed a whole page somehow, I thought my post would be just below this one. And....I guess I missed the part where it was a 428 block. Not sure when that happened-I was under the impression that the bad PU job was a 390 and it was getting rebuilt for the second time after 10 minutes of running. Not sure where I missed that....

And that's interesting about the forged 410 pistons. I built my 410 in the early 90's. Ford Power Parts in Norwalk, CA cut down the TRW 390 fordgings for me and they are the ones that said none were available. Perhaps Ross started making them afterwards. Does anyone know if Ford Power Parts is still around? They were one of the top FE builders and parts makers back then.

[Skifu]

Thanks Alvin in AZ,405 is still plenty big,the way hes building it,what kind of HP and TQ do you estimate??

[Alvin in AZ]

Thanks Alvin in AZ,405 is still plenty big,the way hes building it,what kind of HP and TQ do you estimate??

But I ain't any good at that! :(
LOL :)
You got me confused with someone that actually know-ed sumethin. :/

Fordnatic...
Yeah but. :)
Aren't cast pistons better for daily drivers tho?
I was thinking forged were more for racers, right or wrong or somewhere in between?

I'd like to go with hyper-eutectoid if I build a 393 or 408w stroker.
"like a 300i6 with two extra cylinders"
Should be even better than cast that way?

Alvin in AZ
ps- got my muffler in the '91 Bronco...
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/exhaust1a.jpg
(4" clamp pictured there, number got drilled ;)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/exhaust1.jpg
('75 F150 just showing the application)
pps- Where should I start a thread on my exhaust... "Engine"?

[Fordnatic]

Fordnatic...
Yeah but.
Aren't cast pistons better for daily drivers tho?
I was thinking forged were more for racers, right or wrong or somewhere in between?

I'd like to go with hyper-eutectoid if I build a 393 or 408w stroker.
"like a 300i6 with two extra cylinders"
Should be even better than cast that way?

Alvin in AZ

Well, I don't think that cast is better, but it is adequate for most daily drivers. The forged are much stronger, and don't cost much more is why I like to use them. They do require a slightly larger bore clearance, but that's never been a problem for me. Hyper or cast will stand very little detonation. I do tend to overbuild things, though.

[Dragon]

Forged pistons make the motors noisier when cold They wear better than cast but cost more so cast for budget forged for fun.

[Thomas Lindemann]

If i was going to build an FE I would be talking to these guys, http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/index.html

Forged pistons come in many factory motors, HO 5.0s all came with forged pistons (except late 92s and 93s) and the are notorious for long engine life. Hypereticcast pistons have a purpose as well, they are quite strong and can have very tight piston to cylinder clearance so they maintain very good ring seal.

IMO opinion if i was to spend $8,000.00 on a FE it would have a set of aluminum heads on it, and a custom camshaft from somebody like Jay Allen at Camshaft Innovations. By the time to port those iron heads and do the necessary work, you couldve been well into a set of aluminum heads.

[HOWDY69]

I have to apologies...but I saw your engine naked. I didn't mean to but I walked in and there she was. I was just picking up a set of points from Tom and had no ulterior motives. Sorry dude...really it meant nothing.

[robroy]

Good afternoon Robert, Alvin, Fordnatic, Skifu, Dragon, Hawkrod, Thomas, and Howdy69, thanks for your excellent replies!

There was apparently a factory Ford TSB advising to fill the pan with 6 qts (7 with filter and 8 with external cooler) and remark the dipstick on CJ cars. That is what I do as well.

http://www.428cobrajet.org

Edit, can't link it, go to the homepage and search TSB, you should get 4 results and if you click on the second one and scroll to the bottom it will have the TSB hot linked.

Robert, thanks very much for this link and suggestion! I remember hearing this from you in other threads before, when I was initially shopping for an oil pan.

If another search attempt doesn't yield any larger oil pans that'll fit, I'll ask Tom what he thinks of this TSB!

Actually, a 428 crank in a 390 block (std bore) = a 410. Mercury made them in 66-67. Your overbore would add a few CI's.

Good to know, thanks! In my case, Tom Lucas is actually using a 390 crankshaft in a 390 "105 Mirror" block that's bored to the standard 428 bore size. Tom's calculations showed that this would make a 406 CID FE.

You have to have a different block with a big bore to get 428, very few 390 blocks will bore big enough to make a 428 without the cylinder walls getting too thin or actually breaching the water jacket.

Indeed, so I've heard! I was fortunate to have received (unknowingly) a "105 Mirror" block, and a sonic check showed that it was plenty safe for a standard 428 bore.

The pin height is closer to the top of the piston on 410 pistons because of the longer stroke, otherwise the piston would come up out of the deck. There are only pre-made pistons made in cast for a 410, you have to go to custom pistons to get forged ones. I had some forged 390 pistons cut down and new valve pockets cut when I built my 410. TRW makes a piston with a thick enough top to do this.

Very interesting, thanks for that information! In my case Tom's using custom forged 428-sized pistons from Diamond.

Actually, a 428 crank in a 390 block (std bore) = a 410. Mercury made them in 66-67.

I'm not sure who you are responding to, but:

The engine being discussed here is a 390 crank in a standard bore 428 block so it is not a 410.

Indeed, thanks for clarifying Robert!

390 crank into a 428 block,std.bore,what does it come out to??,smaller,Id guess???

According to Tom, it comes out to 406 CID.

pi/4 x bore x bore x stroke x 8

405.93 cubic inch displacement.

Most excellent, Alvin! Thanks. I'll remember that you posted that formula here for future reference!

And....I guess I missed the part where it was a 428 block. Not sure when that happened-I was under the impression that the bad PU job was a 390 and it was getting rebuilt for the second time after 10 minutes of running. Not sure where I missed that....

You're right! The engine I received from Proformance Unlimited was based on a "105 Mirror" FE block, that was bored out slightly over the standard 390 bore (I forget exactly how much). Because of the deep scratches in the cylinder walls, it was necessary to bring the block to a standard 428 bore size to repair them. And since Tom did a sonic check and showed that the block was happy with that bore size, it all worked out!

Thanks Alvin in AZ,405 is still plenty big,the way hes building it,what kind of HP and TQ do you estimate??

Indeed, I think 406 may be an okay displacement, considering the parts that are going in! The current estimated horsepower is around 427, and the estimated torque is around 528 ft/lbs, at 2,500 RPM. These numbers will probably change before the design is 100% finalized because Tom still needs to hear from the camshaft manufacturer regarding what grind they'll be able to do. But that's the approximate ballpark we're looking at now.

Aren't cast pistons better for daily drivers tho? I was thinking forged were more for racers, right or wrong or somewhere in between?

Well, I don't think that cast is better, but it is adequate for most daily drivers. The forged are much stronger, and don't cost much more is why I like to use them. They do require a slightly larger bore clearance, but that's never been a problem for me. Hyper or cast will stand very little detonation. I do tend to overbuild things, though.

That's quite interesting! I'll have to do some more reading on the differences between these piston types.

Forged pistons make the motors noisier when cold They wear better than cast but cost more so cast for budget forged for fun.

I see! Thanks for clarifying this. I certainly won't mind a noisy engine before it gets warmed up, if I know that it's that way on purpose, for a good reason!

If i was going to build an FE I would be talking to these guys, http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/index.html

Hey Thomas, thanks for this suggestion! At this time though, I'm far beyond the point where I'd consider making this type of change, and I've been extremely happy with FE Specialties so far. Tom is quite a guy, and it's awesome being able to go to his shop in person.

I would say that I'd consider Survival Motorsports if I were going to build another FE in the future, but at this point I am sold on FE Specialties. The amount of special attention and care Tom has already put in to the engine is outstanding, and he's definitely the kind of guy you'd like to know.

Forged pistons come in many factory motors, HO 5.0s all came with forged pistons (except late 92s and 93s) and the are notorious for long engine life. Hypereticcast pistons have a purpose as well, they are quite strong and can have very tight piston to cylinder clearance so they maintain very good ring seal.

Very interesting, thanks for explaining this! I'll keep what you've said in mind when I do my reading later on.

IMO opinion if i was to spend $8,000.00 on a FE it would have a set of aluminum heads on it, and a custom camshaft from somebody like Jay Allen at Camshaft Innovations.

It sounds like you've got a great plan for your future FE Thomas! I'll bet you'd design and build a good one.

By the time to port those iron heads and do the necessary work, you couldve been well into a set of aluminum heads.

Indeed, you're right!

In this case, because of the shape of the port openings in the cast iron heads, it's Tom's opinion that the torque produced by the ported, cast heads will exceed the torque produced by un-ported Edelbrock heads. I'm pretty sure this point is arguable and subject to lots of strong opinions, and in Tom's case, his opinion's based on building a large number of FEs both ways, and running them on a dyno. There's a wall in his shop covered with a whole slew of dyno printouts for the different FEs he has built--I think you'd enjoy checking that out!

I have to apologies...but I saw your engine naked. I didn't mean to but I walked in and there she was. I was just picking up a set of points from Tom and had no ulterior motives. Sorry dude...really it meant nothing.

Well thanks for being honest enough to tell me! I was really shocked when I first read this and wasn't sure if we could still be friends, but I've had some time to come to terms with it. I understand that it was an accident, and since you told me I think I can forget it ever happened.

Seriously though, that's excellent that you saw the engine!!! When you saw it, was its block 100% cleaned up by then?

Updates:

• Tom received my paint sample (the yellow Bumpside on the back cover of a Dennis Carpenter catalog).
• Tom compared the paint sample to the paints he could get in the regular automotive, two-part paint formulas. But he knew that the paint would start to burn off around the exhaust manifolds, and he didn't want that to happen.
• Finally Tom checked out the POR-15 HO Yellow paint, and it seemed like just the thing! He painted a sample and found it to be a great match to the photo I mailed him!
• Tom went ahead and painted the freshly-machined engine block with POR-15 HO Yellow, and he says it turned out beautiful.
• Knowing that Robert's engine turned out so well with the POR-15 paint, this was fantastic news to hear!!!
• The assembly should begin this week, using whatever parts he already has (crankshaft, bearings, connecting rods, and I think pistons).
• He's still waiting for a camshaft. Although Comp Cams told him that they had a core that could be used to create my camshaft, they still haven't finished it and shipped it out (in about two weeks). So Tom's following up with them.
• The porting and port-matching work on the heads is complete (I think I already mentioned this).
• I mentioned to Tom that the Canton "T" style oil pan probably wouldn't work for me, because of the clearance issues reported by Dustman_Stx (Dustman', thank you again for sharing your experience with me, so I didn't have to learn the hard way as you did).
• I mentioned to Tom that the Milodon 30740 oil pan (the one that was on the engine when I brought it to him) was a 5 quart pan, according to Milodon.
• I heard from Tom that if the '30740 is truly a five quart pan, then it will probably work OK, as long as it's over-filled. He thought maybe 5 and 1/3 quarts would be enough.
• I heard from Tom that over-filling the pan shouldn't present any problems, because of the engine's windage tray (it sounds like Tom knows the same secrets that Robert does about CJ-style pans and windage trays)!
• Tom asked about how much clearance I had between the Milodon 30740 and the crossmember, presumably to aide in further oil pan research. So it's not firmly established that we'll go with the Milodon 30740 quite yet.

Those are all the updates I can think of at this time! I haven't been updating this thread as often because I've been super focused, trying to earn kilo-bucks to pay for all this fun. EDIT: by kilo-bucks, I mean thousands of bucks, not bucks earned by selling "kilos!"

I asked Tom to send photos as soon as he had a chance to, so hopefully we'll get a view of this new yellow Beauty soon!

Robert, Alvin, Fordnatic, Skifu, Dragon, Hawkrod, Thomas, and Howdy69, thanks again for the super generous, informative replies!
Robroy

[robroy]

Good morning!

I received an e-mail from Tom this morning. He mentioned that if I'm interested in going this route, he'd be happy to shave off a portion of (or all of) the passenger-side protrusion on the Canton "T" pan, thus making it fit the truck (in theory). He added that there would be some discoloration around the welded area, but other than that should be OK.

In response, I asked for his estimation of how reduced its capacity would be after the shave, and whether or not it could potentially interfere with "baffling" inside the pan. I'm not sure if the interior of the pan looks like an empty box, or if it has a "honeycomb" style 3D grid inside.

What do y'all think of that strategy?

Thanks very much for all the tremendously helpful advice!
Robroy