What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by robroy »

Hey Fuzz, thanks for your reply!
fuzzier1 wrote: I agree with the 'Now I want you to_____". But I would tell them the "around $6,000" you have been quoted to fix what they messed up. You shouldn't have to pay twice to have the engine rebuilt, especailly for a basically stock engine.
This makes sense! That's probably approximately the figure I'll communicate to them.
fuzzier1 wrote:Now for the other side. The economy SUCKS right now (no sh#t? :D ) so be prepared to have PU tell you to go pound sand! You will then have to go talk to District court and/or a Liar.... ,oops, a lawyer to see what they can do for you.
True! We shall see.
fuzzier1 wrote:The main thing is is DON"T GIVE UP or they (PU) will continue to do this kind of shoddy workmanship again and again. Nobody desereves that.
I see your point here. I'll have to think that over. For now, I'll "cross that bridge when I get to it," if you know what I mean.

Thanks very much for your excellent reply Fuzz!
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by OldRedFord »

I think the timing set is closer to the $50 to $100.

The double roller timing set I got was about $50.

Even 7 gs would be fair I think.
Tim

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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by 70_F100 »

robroy wrote: So, what figure is fair for a potential refund? In order to answer this question I estimated the value of all the parts that I'll be able to use, and subtracted them from the total price paid for the engine. Here's my rough draft:
  1. $170: Valve covers
  2. $340: Intake manifold
  3. $300: Carburetor
  4. $240: Distributor
  5. $200: MSD 6AL Ignition
  6. $50: Spark plug wires
  7. $170: Water pump
  8. $200: Timing gears and chain (just a guess at the price there)
  9. $100: K&N Air Cleaner
  10. $50: Fuel pump
  11. $50: Ignition coil
  12. $100: The value of the engine block, after being scratched up
  13. $100: The value of the scratched up crankshaft
  14. $50: The value of the messed up heads (being generous here).
  15. $100: The oil pan
This list of parts totals at $2,220. I paid $8,955. The difference is $6,735.

Although Tom's labor charge for re-doing the engine is around $2,000, he'll be producing something much better than what I would have had in the first place. So I can take the responsibility for that $2,000.

It seems like $6,735 is a fair, forgiving refund to expect from Proformance Unlimited.

What do ya'll think?

Robroy
I have to be careful here, because I’ve found myself getting very emotional about this issue. Besides that, I don’t want to incur the wrath of DuckRyder!!! :box: (Just kidding!!)

Robroy, I think the number you’ve come up with is close to fair. However, I think I would deduct the price of the block, crankshaft and heads, also. :maybe:

Keep in mind that you have incurred additional labor, substantial time, and the cost of transportation to Tom’s shop (figure that at about $0.55/per mile). :$$: :$$: :$$:

Personally, I think that your final cost of the engine should come up to exactly what you paid for it originally. PU (man, I like the reference posted earlier :D ) committed to providing an engine without defects for a cost that was pre-negotiated. What they provided was far less than what they promised. :nono: Even though the time ran out on the warranty, they know the engine wasn't run during that period (come to think of it, maybe they were counting on that when they sold you the engine!! :evil: ). Once Tom has finished the engine and you have it re-installed and running correctly, determine your cost including Tom’s cost, cost for any fluids (like coolant, P/S fluid, etc) that you have to purchase during the re-install, mileage cost, and a fair cost for your labor (in this case, I would use $20/hour as a base, since you are an “amateur” mechanic [read, “not your primary area of expertise :doh: ]). All of these are legitimate costs. This will, undoubtedly, be more than the number you arrived at above. Therefore, PU (there it is again!! :D ) will end up losing money on the parts they supplied, but that’s business. :cry:

That being said, if you could get $6000-$7000 from them, I think any number in that range would be an acceptable compromise. Their reputation is at stake here, and a good-faith refund would DEFINITELY go a long way toward showing that they run a reputable organization. Any less, and I think I would consult an attorney and sue PU (what, AGAIN??? :D ) for the full amount you paid them. Then, either post a link to this thread on your website, or create a new page on your website (include a LOT of pics and documentation) that chronicles the entire ordeal. A side benefit to that would be that your website gets extra traffic that may generate additional business for you!! :thup:

Just my :2cents:
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by DuckRyder »

70_F100 wrote:
I have to be careful here, because I’ve found myself getting very emotional about this issue. Besides that, I don’t want to incur the wrath of DuckRyder!!! :box: (Just kidding!!)
Nah, we are cool... :wink:

There are several ways to look at it, I'll try to organize my thoughts this evening and detail some options. But as I see it there are really two issues.

1) The engine was not usable as delivered.
2) I do not believe any reasonable person would expect an FE with the specs that were found to make 426 HP. (that was the figure right?)

Also, as I mentioned earlier, robroy, I would not be very fast to fall on my sword over the windage tray. If Proformance Unlimited agreed to provide an engine suitable for a 2WD F250 and provided it with the wrong pan (and I believe that is what they agreed to) then they were responsible for getting the pan changed for you. When they agreed to allow you to do it, they assumed the responsibility for providing the needed guidance unless you declined it.
Robert
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by 70shortwide »

DuckRyder wrote:
Nah, we are cool... :wink:

There are several ways to look at it, I'll try to organize my thoughts this evening and detail some options. But as I see it there are really two issues.

1) The engine was not usable as delivered.
2) I do not believe any reasonable person would expect an FE with the specs that were found to make 426 HP. (that was the figure right?)

Also, as I mentioned earlier, robroy, I would not be very fast to fall on my sword over the windage tray. If Proformance Unlimited agreed to provide an engine suitable for a 2WD F250 and provided it with the wrong pan (and I believe that is what they agreed to) then they were responsible for getting the pan changed for you. When they agreed to allow you to do it, they assumed the responsibility for providing the needed guidance unless you declined it.
I was thinking about this earlier and I came to the exact conlusion that you did.

the HP figure was 436
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by sideoilerfe »

Just a thought semi related: Robroy, you should get the old 360 out of the weather. Someone could use it. It'd be a shame to throw something usable away.I know it's not usable right now however maybe Tom could use it as a core. Maybe he'd give you $50-$100 for it and he could use it and build a nice motor fore someone else.
Side oiler FE, see if you can catch me!!!

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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by 71PA_Highboy »

robroy wrote:Hey Fuzz, thanks for your reply!
Yes indeed! I don't think I'll need to worry about being impolite or getting upset, since I'm far from that state now. I'll make every effort to remain friendly and polite while still being completely honest about what I think. Too bad it's not legal to record a conversation unless it's made known during the conversation itself--I'll bet you guys would be highly entertained to hear exactly how it goes!
Robroy
Actually, the law states only 1 party has to be informed that the conversation is being recorded. If you know the conversation is being recorded, then it meets the requirements.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

And even if you did record it and it failed to meet the legal requirements for submission to court, that has no effect on your sharing it with us.


BTW, I am not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by robroy »

Good Saturday Morning Tim, 70_F100, Robert, 70ShortWide, SideOilerFE, and 71PA_Highboy! Thanks for your fantastic replies!
OldRedFord wrote:I think the timing set is closer to the $50 to $100.

The double roller timing set I got was about $50.
Oh okay, thanks for letting me know!
OldRedFord wrote:Even 7 gs would be fair I think.
Agreed! If this were an insurance settlement or something like that, I think "fair" would mean that after corrections were made, I'd be returned to the exact financial situation I was in before the incident. But as long as this scenario can be resolved strictly between Proformance Unlimited and myself (as long as I don't need a lawyer, which I doubt I will), I'm ready to forget about what it cost me to drive to Tom's and other related expenses.
70_F100 wrote: Robroy, I think the number you’ve come up with is close to fair. However, I think I would deduct the price of the block, crankshaft and heads, also. :maybe:
I see! I may not follow what's meant in this context by deducting them. Do you mean that I shouldn't have the small amounts of cash value for those parts in my list of usable parts, because they had to be re-done? I'm guessing that even heads, a crankshaft, and a block that need to be re-done have a small amount of value.
70_F100 wrote:Keep in mind that you have incurred additional labor, substantial time, and the cost of transportation to Tom’s shop (figure that at about $0.55/per mile). :$$: :$$: :$$:
You're right. And if I need to resort to legal means to make the situation right, all these tiny expenses will be added in.
70_F100 wrote:Personally, I think that your final cost of the engine should come up to exactly what you paid for it originally.
Yes perhaps that makes sense!
70_F100 wrote:PU (man, I like the reference posted earlier :D ) committed to providing an engine without defects for a cost that was pre-negotiated. What they provided was far less than what they promised. :nono:
Agreed. Your final point here seems indisputable now, after all the evidence that has been discovered!
70_F100 wrote:Even though the time ran out on the warranty, they know the engine wasn't run during that period (come to think of it, maybe they were counting on that when they sold you the engine!! :evil: ).
The thought did cross my mind! I'm fully aware that while on the phone with them, they wouldn't have had difficulty determining that I'm a beginner who doesn't know a lot about engines. Based on what I've learned up until now, it's comical to think back and remember all the questions I didn't ask before buying the engine!
70_F100 wrote:Once Tom has finished the engine and you have it re-installed and running correctly, determine your cost including Tom’s cost, cost for any fluids (like coolant, P/S fluid, etc) that you have to purchase during the re-install, mileage cost, and a fair cost for your labor (in this case, I would use $20/hour as a base, since you are an “amateur” mechanic [read, “not your primary area of expertise :doh: ]). All of these are legitimate costs. This will, undoubtedly, be more than the number you arrived at above. Therefore, PU (there it is again!! :D ) will end up losing money on the parts they supplied, but that’s business. :cry:
This sounds like a pretty reasonable plan! Although it could be some time before the new engine's all installed and running, and my inclination is to contact Pro-formance Unlimited this coming week to talk the situation over. Do you think I should delay in contacting them until I've collected a final figure regarding what this scenario cost me? That could be a multi-month delay.
70_F100 wrote:That being said, if you could get $6000-$7000 from them, I think any number in that range would be an acceptable compromise.
Yeah I agree.
70_F100 wrote:Their reputation is at stake here, and a good-faith refund would DEFINITELY go a long way toward showing that they run a reputable organization.
Sure would! This is really a big opportunity for them to restore some trust with a significant group of people.
70_F100 wrote:Any less, and I think I would consult an attorney and sue PU (what, AGAIN??? :D ) for the full amount you paid them. Then, either post a link to this thread on your website, or create a new page on your website (include a LOT of pics and documentation) that chronicles the entire ordeal.
I hope it won't come to that, and I suspect it won't. I'm guessing that once they're presented with all the information, they'll respond in a caring and helpful way. I sure know I would, if I were running an engine shop! We'll see!
70_F100 wrote:A side benefit to that would be that your website gets extra traffic that may generate additional business for you!! :thup:
Good point! Yet I'm not certain whether or not this would create a positive public impression, or the simple impression that "Robroy sues people," or "Robroy has a problem." I tend to think that people make simple associations between pieces of information they gather, and I wouldn't necessarily be subject to the "benefit of the doubt." But you've made an interesting point that I'll have to think over.
DuckRyder wrote: There are several ways to look at it, I'll try to organize my thoughts this evening and detail some options. But as I see it there are really two issues.

1) The engine was not usable as delivered.
Indeed, it seems like this was most probably (almost certainly) the case.
DuckRyder wrote:2) I do not believe any reasonable person would expect an FE with the specs that were found to make 426 HP. (that was the figure right?)
I think you're right here too! The figure was 436 HP (thanks 70ShortWide for pointing this out), but like you're saying, that wasn't a reasonable figure. And that wasn't the only thing that I was told that turned out to be false.

Just one tiny preview of my upcoming review of my visit with Tom yesterday: Tom determined the compression ratio of the Proformance Unlimited engine--it was between 8.7:1 and 8.9:1. Steve at Proformance Unlimited told me very clearly, and on several occasions that I was buying an engine with 10:1 compression.

As I understand it, Tom arrived at the 8.7:1 to 8.9:1 range because he discovered that the combination of pistons and heads ought to have yielded a 9:1 ratio, yet several of the valves had significantly recessed seats, creating more combustion chamber volume. Okay, more on this in my official review!
DuckRyder wrote:Also, as I mentioned earlier, robroy, I would not be very fast to fall on my sword over the windage tray. If Proformance Unlimited agreed to provide an engine suitable for a 2WD F250 and provided it with the wrong pan (and I believe that is what they agreed to) then they were responsible for getting the pan changed for you. When they agreed to allow you to do it, they assumed the responsibility for providing the needed guidance unless you declined it.
Your thinking here seems very reasonable! It would have been equitable for them to have hired a shop to replace the pan for me, but they had me replace it instead (which was a LOT of work, since I'm a beginner). And furthermore, what I've heard from Tom makes me all the less convinced that my windage tray incident had anything to do with these major problems.

And perhaps the strongest related point of all: I heard from Steve at Proformance Unlimited, on several occasions, and most convincingly, that as long as I sprayed the engine out with brake cleaner, my windage tray mistake couldn't have caused any real damage to the engine. So in order for them to claim that the big damage was caused by my mistake, they'd have to un-do this decision and claim that they already made.
sideoilerfe wrote:Just a thought semi related: Robroy, you should get the old 360 out of the weather. Someone could use it. It'd be a shame to throw something usable away.I know it's not usable right now however maybe Tom could use it as a core. Maybe he'd give you $50-$100 for it and he could use it and build a nice motor fore someone else.
Hey SideOilerFE, you're absolutely right. It was foolish of me to leave the engine out in the elements. At the time, I didn't think a 360 had any desirable parts in it--now that I've learned more about FEs, I understand how many parts are common to all of them.

The engine's difficult to access at the moment, but I will definitely cover it up (and spray it down with WD-40) when I'm able to.
71PA_Highboy wrote:
robroy wrote:Too bad it's not legal to record a conversation unless it's made known during the conversation itself
Actually, the law states only 1 party has to be informed that the conversation is being recorded. If you know the conversation is being recorded, then it meets the requirements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

And even if you did record it and it failed to meet the legal requirements for submission to court, that has no effect on your sharing it with us.
Thanks for this information! I watched the video!

Then I thought it over. And I realized that even if it's legal, I wouldn't feel right about doing it. I have every intention of treating Proformance Unlimited well--I won't behave towards them in any way I wouldn't want somebody behaving towards me. And if somebody recorded a conversation with me without telling me, and posted it on the web I'd feel a little put off by that. Not so much that I'd be worried about a large number of people hearing my conversation; I'd feel like I'd been deceived by the guy who recorded it, and wouldn't trust him easily from then on.
71PA_Highboy wrote:BTW, I am not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I see! :)

Tim, 70_F100, Robert, 70ShortWide, SideOilerFE, and 71PA_Highboy, thanks again for your excellent replies!
Robroy
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by 70shortwide »

how did it go yesterday with tom? anything new?

BTW, Ive literally had this thread on my computer for days just hitting "refresh" waiting for peoples thoughts. I catch myself thinking about it through the day too! I think a lot of people here will say the same, were here for you and are excited to see whats next. (not in a bad way) I really want to see where this goes. Its like a movie that quits working right at the climax.
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by fomocoguy »

This just gets worse and worse! The wrong compression ratio, valves recessed into the heads, grossly exagerrated horsepower figures; I really think he just figured you would never know. If not then very little research was done before it was built. What a piss poor excuse for an engine builder. I hope this thread pops up any time somebody searches for proformance unlimited.
Last edited by fomocoguy on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by robroy »

Hey 70ShortWide, thanks for your great reply!
70shortwide wrote:how did it go yesterday with tom? anything new?
It went fantastically! And I do have many updates. I'm just in the process now of preparing the images. I also have a video of Tom explaining to damage to me!
70shortwide wrote:BTW, Ive literally had this thread on my computer for days just hitting "refresh" waiting for peoples thoughts. I catch myself thinking about it through the day too! I think a lot of people here will say the same, were here for you and are excited to see whats next. (not in a bad way) I really want to see where this goes. Its like a movie that quits working right at the climax.
Well thank you very much for being interested and supportive! Your guidance is extremely valuable to me and I really appreciate how involved you guys have become in helping me.

Yesterday I arrived at Tom's at 1:10PM and didn't depart until nearly 5! Tom spent hours explaining what he found in the engine (25 minutes of that was video recorded, and will be posted here today), and going over all the options for the new build. Also, several of Tom's other customers came by and I got to meet them. Tom has such unusually great rapport with his customers. The way they all interact is like watching long time friends hanging out! You can tell how much they enjoy coming by to visit with Tom and find out about their projects.

Here are a series of photos of the engine block and cylinder walls. In every cylinder wall I tried, the grooves carved in the surface were deep enough to be clearly felt with my finger nail. Some of them were more pronounced than others, but it seemed plain to me that the surfaces were pretty messed up!

As usual, clicking on all (or nearly all) of these images will yield a super detailed, full resolution edition of the image.

ImageImage

Here's the first photo I took of the cylinders. Because of the angle I took the photo at, it doesn't show too much.

Image

If I had it to do over again I would have paid more attention to exactly which cylinders I was photographing. Oh well! These two cylinders are damaged, but they're among the least damaged. The grooves felt rough when you ran your finger nail across them.

ImageImage

The photo on the left shows one of the worst off cylinders. A lot of metal was missing there, and the grooves were pretty darn scratchy!

ImageImage

These ones weren't quite as bad, but still bad:

ImageImage

These weren't looking so hot:

ImageImage

And these final two photos may be the most revealing of all--you can really see the damage there, right?

ImageImage

Stay tuned for more photos!
Robroy
Last edited by robroy on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by 1971ford »

fomocoguy wrote:This just gets worse and worse! The wrong compression ratio, valves recessed into the heads, grossly exagerrated horsepower figures; I really think he just figured you would never know. What a piss poor excuse for an engine builder. I hope this thread pops up any time somebody searches for proformance engines.
I searched for Performance unlimited on google earlier, and couldn't find any bad reviews surprisingly, and this thread did not come up. It would be nice if it did! The word needs to get out, so people don't keep getting screwed without knowing it :x
-Ryan
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by robroy »

Hey FoMoCoGuy, thanks for replying!
fomocoguy wrote:This just gets worse and worse! The wrong compression ratio, valves recessed into the heads, grossly exagerrated horsepower figures; I really think he just figured you would never know.
Yes this could be!
fomocoguy wrote:What a piss poor excuse for an engine builder. I hope this thread pops up any time somebody searches for proformance engines.
I can see what you'd say this. But it may still have a positive outcome! You can count on hearing the full story in detail though, either way!
1971ford wrote: I searched for Performance unlimited on google earlier, and couldn't find any bad reviews surprisingly, and this thread did not come up. It would be nice if it did! The word needs to get out, so people don't keep getting screwed without knowing it :x
Hey Ryan! Did you search for literally "performance unlimited?" They seem to use a few variations on this, but their exact name is either Pro-formance Unlimited (note the dash), or Proformance Unlimited. (Note the "pro" instead of "per.").

If you search for "Proformance Unlimited" and "problem" all at once, it's Google's second or third hit. Or at least it was a few days ago.

FoMoCoGuy and Ryan, thanks very much for your great replies!
Robroy
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by DuckRyder »

I said that I would put some thoughts together:

One thing that I would like everyone to keep in mind is that I would be willing to bet that ProFormance Unlimited is already reading this thread. There is at least one other person on this site that has one of their engines and even if one of their customers hasn’t already provided it to them, as we already talked about it turns up when you Google their name + problem, if I owned a business, I think I'd Google myself occasionally (despite what the celebrities say).

There is more than one way to approach this, what robroy has worked on is definitely one way by essentially giving them “credit” for the salvageable parts. If I approached it that way, I would make every effort to use the actual prices from normally available suppliers. Summit racing for the new stuff and perhaps DSC Motorsports for the crank, heads, rods, and so forth. You could also just consider the engine block/heads/rods/crank and so forth a “core” and use the price it would cost to buy a used engine to rebuild. $150.00 would buy one around here, but that “105” block would bring good money at DSC.

The other way to look at it is to take what you were promised and determine what it would cost to have someone turn what you have into what was promised. How that works out depends on how well you can document what they promised. I am assuming you probably have some E-Mails that will do that. I think that would yield a higher dollar amount, because I honestly do not think you can build a 436hp normally aspirated 390FE for $8995.00 (or whatever the exact figure was) including the carburetor, distributor, oil pan MSD and so forth. Realistically mine probably makes something in the 400 – 425 HP range (although DD2000 said something ridiculous like 575) and the machine shop bill ALONE was $3500.00 and the only parts they supplied were the cam, rod and main bearings.

Either way you look at it I would use “real” money, if you were buying all of the parts individually you would shop the best price, so do not give them credit for MSRP if you can buy it for less. Likewise, if they said speed pro forged pistons do not charge them for Diamond of Ross, is the speed pros would make the power.

I would make it clear when talking to them, that I was not at this point looking to recover mileage, expendables, labor and so forth, but if it required legal action to reach a settlement I would be looking to recover every possible cent.

Do not forget that there may be other help like:
The Better Business Bureau…
California consumer protection Laws…
Interstate commerce laws…

I am not a lawyer, so check all this out with yours, but avail yourself of all avenues to recover what you feel is due.

I think a computer guy, who has a ton of pictures and other evidence should be considered a significant threat should he take a notion to do something like whip up a webpage, detail this whole thing with “8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the side”. Even more so when he can get a thread on a little old Ford truck board on the first page of Google hits.

In other words, this could turn into a whole mess-O-trouble.
Robert
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Re: What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

Post by 1971ford »

robroy wrote: Yesterday I arrived at Tom's at 1:10PM and didn't depart until nearly 5! Tom spent hours explaining what he found in the engine (25 minutes of that was video recorded, and will be posted here today), and going over all the options for the new build. Also, several of Tom's other customers came by and I got to meet them. Tom has such unusually great rapport with his customers. The way they all interact is like watching long time friends hanging out! You can tell how much they enjoy coming by to visit with Tom and find out about their projects.

Robroy
Dang, so i could of met you down there after all, you stayed for quite a while! Oh well.

I'm leaving to go see Tom in half an hour, I'll say hi to your engine :wink:
-Ryan
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